Dark Bit Factory & Gravity

GENERAL => Challenges & Competitions => Topic started by: Shockwave on September 21, 2008

Title: Retro-Remake Challenge!
Post by: Shockwave on September 21, 2008
Remake Challenge Overview



The rules follow in the next post in this thread, this is just an overview which is necessary this time because the challenge is a little bit more complicated than usual.

Welcome to the second remakes challenge on the DBF interactive community. The first one happened last year and was mostly a great success, a few things are different this time but the spirit is still the same.

The last challenge was so much fun for a lot of people and in particular, Stormbringer that a complete new website was created for them, the website is RETRO REMAKES (http://www.retro-remakes.net), at the time of writing this, there are 160 remakes on that web site. A staggering achievement considering that it has been open for a year. Stormbringer himself has remade nearly 100!

The purpose of this challenge is to remake a demo, intro or cracktro from an old computer, such as Commodore Amiga, Commodore 64 or Atari ST, to remake the production with total respect and sensitivity for the original so that it runs on a modern day PC.

There are several constraints on this competition, firstly the entry needs to qualify for it. There are two judges appointed to this challenge;

Stormbringer (Webmaster of retro-remakes.net)
Shockwave (Sponsor / part time webmaster of retro-remakes.net)

Both Myself and Stormbringer may enter into this challenge, but you will not be able to vote for us in the final voting.



Stormbringer and I will assess how close your remake is to the original, the bench mark is 90% accuracy.

We will then give your entry a mark, the mark will be a difficulty rating of 0-100 which will be multiplied by accuracy, this score will be displayed in the competition summary to help voters to choose the winner, so even though we will be vetting the entries to make sure they hit the needed standard to be added to retro-remakes, the winners will still be democratically decided by the users of this forum and with this consideration, it is possible that we may be over-ruled by the community if you feel that we got it slightly wrong ;)

We will provide help with obtaining the original media from demos and intros where we can, although you should definately NOT rely on this and we prefer you to obtain your own media.

We have made a zip file of some of the common fonts and exotic tunes that are used in Amiga cracktros available, also I compiled a small tutorial about ripping CLICK HERE (http://dbfinteractive.com/forum/index.php?topic=3532.0) If you want something ripped for you and you cant do it yourself you should post in THAT thread, NOT here, any erroneous posts in this thread will have to be deleted because this thread will be used for reservations only.


Yes, reservations! There is no point in people working on the same thing so you may reserve up to 3 Intros/Cracktros at once and post links in this thread to the one(s) you are working on.

If you stop working on something because it is too difficult, you should post to say it is available again, so that someone else can work on it. Please do not reserve something you know you have no chance of remaking or time to remake. To show you what I mean I will make the first reservation in this competition.



Last year there was an accusation that someone had stolen code without credit from a remaker, that remaker has been allowed to re-join this forum because the accusations were later found to be possibly true. The argument spilled over onto the forum, if this happens again any protagonists will have an instant ban and all their posts deleted. This is to protect this and future competitions. However...

If you think we have got something wrong, please PM us. We just want to make sure that this comp is great fun for everyone who enters it.

The other thing is (and it's fairly obvious) is that we don't want remakes of things we already have.
You can check this by going here;

CLICK (http://www.retro-remakes.net/search.php)

You do not need to be a member of retro-remakes.net to use the search feature of that site or to enter this challenge, but you do need to be a member of this community.. In any case, joining retro-remakes takes less than a minute ;)



Lastly, the challenge prize fund has been sponsored by;

Shockwave^Codigos and RBZ^Codigos

We also would like to thank;

Stormbringer for looking after the site, Tetra for building the portal, Hell's Angel for moderating the portal and to all our users for their downloads, votes and comments..

Rules are below :)

Title: Re: Retro-Remake Challenge!
Post by: Shockwave on September 21, 2008
Remake Challenge

Competition rules:


These rules have been very complicated to bring together, we think that they are workable and we really hope that you'll enjoy the challenge! We're relying on the good spirit of this community as usual to be sporting and not try to pick the rules apart because the comp needed to deviate from our usual format with it spanning two sites, so please keep this in mind :)



Prizes:

Title: Re: Retro-Remake Challenge!
Post by: Shockwave on September 21, 2008
{reservation}

CLASSIC CREATURE + 5 TRAINER

(http://arabuusimiehet.com/break/amiga/img/9000/9823.PNG)

I will be working on this one to start with.
Title: Re: Retro-Remake Challenge!
Post by: hellsangel on September 21, 2008
I don't know if it's for the competition, but I am on this one, almost finished, so... :
(http://kestra.exotica.org.uk/files/screenies/25000/23119a.png)

and also my old remake I want to adapt with OpenGl :
(http://kestra.exotica.org.uk/files/screenies/24000/5035.png)

skid row z-out...
(http://kestra.exotica.org.uk/files/screenies/9000/9265.PNG)

lemmings giga trainer/punishers-betrayal
(http://kestra.exotica.org.uk/files/screenies/2000/2830.PNG)

bubba'n stix/paradox

crystal
(http://www.intro-inferno.com/pics/thumbs/844.jpg)
Title: Re: Retro-Remake Challenge!
Post by: Shockwave on September 21, 2008
Ok, as I haven't started it it's yours :) I'll think of something else to do :)
Title: Re: Retro-Remake Challenge!
Post by: stormbringer on September 21, 2008
{reservation}

Agile - Gods
Horizon - Powerdrom Import
Scoopex - Mental Hangover
Scoopex - Xenomorphs
Papillon - Samurai
Quadlite - World Darts Trainer

These reamakes are almost done or will be done in the next days to come.

As Shockwave mentions, I'm not part of the competition, but will release these for fun only. I'll be glad to help people with already ripped music/graphics and more if possible.

I hope we will get more of you involved in the preservation of these little marvels for the platforms Shockwave mentinoned. They all deserve to be available on modern computers with proper fresh code and no approximative emulation.

Please keep in mind that we'll be glad to add to the collection all remakes with a quality mark above or equal to 90%. However the winner of the competition will be designated using the criterias liste above.
Title: Re: Retro-Remake Challenge!
Post by: Jim on September 21, 2008
I'm gonna try this one, cos I love the music :)

Jim

Title: Re: Retro-Remake Challenge!
Post by: Shockwave on September 22, 2008
I'll be doing this little Paranoimia one then (also because the song is wonderful).
Title: Re: Retro-Remake Challenge!
Post by: hellfire on September 22, 2008
Scoopex - Mental Hangover (http://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=1472)
:clap:

If you remade Crionics and Silents Hardwired (http://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=981), that would have a difficulty rating of 100
That's my favourite amiga-demo ever!
Everyone feel encouraged to try it please ;D

Quote
Your remake has to be at least 90% accurate
I'm wondering how you're going to measure that...

As already stated elsewhere, I'll try this one:
(http://www.pouet.net/screenshots/14485.jpg) (http://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=14485)



Title: Re: Retro-Remake Challenge!
Post by: Shockwave on September 22, 2008
Quote
Quote
Your remake has to be at least 90% accurate
I'm wondering how you're going to measure that...

It can't be scientifically measured of course :) We will gauge them by the 160 + that are done already and by running the remake alongside the original.

If we get it wrong though, the voting system will even things out I am sure :)

Nice choice for the remake btw.
Title: Re: Retro-Remake Challenge!
Post by: stormbringer on September 22, 2008
There is no scientific method of course, but be sure that on my behalf, I'm not judging things based on my taste or my understanding of what is difficult. Even the most simple ones can become a nightmare once you try to remake them. I'll give you a few examples of what I'll look at, so there will be no doubts., things I'll look at quite seriously, since what were trying to reach as a goal is to have a large collection of Win32 remakes to preserve these prods with maximum fidelity:

1) the rules are specific about the resolution and interpolation (filtering) and aspect ratio of the visuals
2) timing and sync of visual elements (as much as possible, knowing that perfect timing cannot be achieved for some intros due to the different VBL rates on Amiga/Atari/C64 and PCs)
3) positioning of the visuals with the exception of trade offs in case because of the chosen resolution. For example, for some prods, it may not be wise to choose a 800x600 resolution because the screen would be too big and probably empty. By choosing a 640x480 resolution you may want to rearrange the elements in a way that they fit within the screen in a proper way. The easy way would be to squeeze the visuals but of course this would ruin the prod.
4) some things may be difficult or maybe very difficult to recreate (even with the source code available) such as plasmas. I'll be checking these carefully and of course these are things that when done properly, would raise your accuracy mark and quality mark at once.
5) low-res, mid-res, high-res consistency. Mixed resolution consistency (the Amiga allows mixed resolutions.... so watch out!). An example is this intro I remade a few days ago: Paradox Sub Trade (http://www.retro-remakes.net/viewproduction.php?prod=c132952fb25835e701ff9a49f845da2d97a9ba1c) The 2 rotating cubes seem to have a 1:1aspect ratio,but if you take a closer look, they are rendered at half the resolution in Y and then stretched (using the copper on the Amiga). These are the kind of thinks I'll look at... same here: Vision Factory (http://www.retro-remakes.net/viewproduction.php?prod=3f0c2c610becd774310ff7bde70809b6a4c3e34b) .. the twisted copper bars are spinning in opposite directions because otherwise the optical effect between one copper bar and the bubble starfield would result in an apparent lack of motion for one of the copper bars...

if you need more of these details I'll look at, just ask..
Title: Re: Retro-Remake Challenge!
Post by: Rbz on September 25, 2008
[Reservation]

I'll remake this one -> TRSI Cracktro #6 (http://www.intro-inferno.com/production.php?id=1023)


Title: Re: Retro-Remake Challenge!
Post by: Shockwave on September 26, 2008
Nice choice Rbz, that one has some really nice music and has some details that would be quite time consuming, such as the fades on start up and exit.
Title: Re: Retro-Remake Challenge!
Post by: Xalthorn on October 14, 2008
I'm a little late starting, and I'm trying to get my head around the challenge, but I thought I should reserve the one I'm going to attempt.

It's Cyberzerk from Accession


Title: Re: Retro-Remake Challenge!
Post by: stormbringer on October 14, 2008
excellent choice Xalthorn! I'm sure you will finish it before the deadline
Title: Re: Retro-Remake Challenge!
Post by: Xalthorn on October 14, 2008
excellent choice Xalthorn! I'm sure you will finish it before the deadline

Hehe, I wish I had your confidence, I'm currently falling over what appear to be elementary assumptions..

For example, the screen resolution is confusing me.  A screengrab of the emulator running this is 720x568.  As it's doubling the resolution, that brings it to a 'normal' of 360x284 or a 1:1.27 ratio rather than 1:1.33.

If I run the emulator in 800x600 fullscreen, the image is shunted to the right with a lot of left hand wastage.  If I run at 640x480 fullscreen, there is some really horrible clipping.

Having obtained the graphic rips, the logo is 352 pixels wide and according to the internet, the Amiga ran at resolutions of either 640x200x4 or 320x200x256, neither of which seem to 'fit' this logo.  Even taking into consideration that the logo was bordered by dead space, and I'm assuming 4 pixels either side to bring the display to 360 pixels wide, it doesn't seem to fit anything sensible.

Unless I'm missing something really really obvious (and no doubt embarrassing), do I need to do some fiddling to make it 'fit'?
Title: Re: Retro-Remake Challenge!
Post by: stormbringer on October 14, 2008
well, here is the story:

The Amiga had the following screen modes

Low resolution: 320 x Y
Med/High resolution: 640x Y

it's times Y because Y can be anything, up to 568..

so, here is a bit of useful information. The Amiga computers were made to work with television-like monitors. When the Amiga was released, the television standards available were only SD (standard definition) and with 2 signal formats: NTSC & PAL.

Both NTSC & PAL have 720 pixels in width and

NTSC has 486 pixels height
PAL 568 pixels height

NTSC is often given the height of 480, but that's because the 6 remaining lines are used for signal sync.

The Amiga could drive the scanline beam (among other things) through the Copper, a dedicated processor.

So, in your case, if you want to display the full possible Amiga resolution, then the target buffer you draw to (DirectX, OpenGL, software, etc) should be 720x576 (unless you go for NTSC, but most of the prods where made for PAL resolutions).

Obviously, such a resolution is not available on PCs in full screen mode. It used to be, but since graphic card manufacturers had the opportunity to make their own decisions, they decided to go with their own stuff, rather than having something compatible with the television standards. The closest resolution would be 640x480. That's closer to NTSC, normal since most of the manufacturers (if not all of them) are american :)

No more PAL-like resolutions. Plus the minimum refresh rates for a PC screen is 60Hz. There was once the posibility to set 50Hz, but no more.

So if you want to have a screen resolution that can handle the whole PAL resolution, then go for 800x600. All you have to do, is to position your content in an appropriate manner. Have a look at some prods on http://www.retro-remakes.net and you will see how it works.

For me, I always set the WinUAE emulator for windowed mode, PAL resolution, no aspect ratio correction. That's easier for screen captures, although I prefer to rip graphics using the old way.

I hopethis helps a bit. If not, let me know...
Title: Re: Retro-Remake Challenge!
Post by: Xalthorn on October 14, 2008
Thanks for that,

That explains the resolution and that I'm not going *completely* mad :D
Title: Re: Retro-Remake Challenge!
Post by: Shockwave on October 14, 2008
Fantastic choice Xalthorn :)

This is a remake that I would really, really like to see in the library.. It's a very good one!
Title: Re: Retro-Remake Challenge!
Post by: Shockwave on October 14, 2008
Song is a strange format though I think?
Will it play with sc68?
Title: Re: Retro-Remake Challenge!
Post by: stormbringer on October 14, 2008
here's your tune. It's in Protracker format
Title: Re: Retro-Remake Challenge!
Post by: Shockwave on October 14, 2008
:) Even better.
Title: Re: Retro-Remake Challenge!
Post by: stormbringer on October 14, 2008
you may add this link to your resources page:

ftp://ftp.modland.com/pub/modules/

I posted it a couple of times here, but of course it gets lost amog the hundreds of posts..

It's a great collection. Not 100% complete as always, but not that bad either
Title: Re: Retro-Remake Challenge!
Post by: Shockwave on October 14, 2008
It's added now:

http://www.dbfinteractive.com/links.php?order=0 (http://www.dbfinteractive.com/links.php?order=0)

:)
Title: Re: Retro-Remake Challenge!
Post by: Xalthorn on October 14, 2008
Song is a strange format though I think?
Will it play with sc68?

Well, I checked out Hellsangel's site and was pleased to find that the resources had already been ripped and the song was also in .mod format.
Title: Re: Retro-Remake Challenge!
Post by: stormbringer on October 14, 2008
Hellsangel's website is my best resource for these remakes. And the guy is really nice and helpful. Lots of my remakes were done thanks to him :)
Title: Re: Retro-Remake Challenge!
Post by: hellsangel on October 15, 2008
If my resources can help you... sorry for the download speed on my site, but it's a free (yep "free.fr") hosting : quantity, not quality  :crutches: ...very slow today :(

I had the same problem with the pal resolution at the beginning (and more with the Overscan).
I'm very "grrrr" against the PC resolutions  >:D

according to the internet, the Amiga ran at resolutions of either 640x200x4 or 320x200x256

hmm... 640x200 or 256 x 4 to 16 colors, and 320x200 or 256 x 32 or 64 colors (and even 4096 in Ham mode on ECS/OCS and for AGA, 256 in Ham8, and more in 24bit mode, but never used in a crackro).
there are also the Overscan resolutions like in this intro : 352x288 !

original module is in Player5 format, converted with ProWizard.

oops, I just see that the original logo haven't the good colors. I'll update the file.
Title: Re: Retro-Remake Challenge!
Post by: Xalthorn on October 15, 2008
If my resources can help you... sorry for the download speed on my site, but it's a free (yep "free.fr") hosting : quantity, not quality  :crutches: ...very slow today :(

The download speed wasn't noticeable, and even if it took an hour it would be a thousand times faster than me trying to learn how to rip stuff myself.

I had the same problem with the pal resolution at the beginning (and more with the Overscan).
I'm very "grrrr" against the PC resolutions  >:D

according to the internet, the Amiga ran at resolutions of either 640x200x4 or 320x200x256

hmm... 640x200 or 256 x 4 to 16 colors, and 320x200 or 256 x 32 or 64 colors (and even 4096 in Ham mode on ECS/OCS and for AGA, 256 in Ham8, and more in 24bit mode, but never used in a crackro).
there are also the Overscan resolutions like in this intro : 352x288 !

LOL, okay, that's just thrown me a complete curveball just when I thought I was getting to grips with Amiga resolutions.


original module is in Player5 format, converted with ProWizard.

oops, I just see that the original logo haven't the good colors. I'll update the file.


No real issue.  I saw the two logos and thought, 'ooh, that's the right colours, that's the one to use' and 'I wonder what that other one is, probably not needed, I'll ignore that one'.

I then looked more closely at the colourful one and realised that it wasn't the right wording so I looked again at the other.  A quick palette save and load and I had the correct logo in the correct colours.

Freaked me out for a moment though ;)

I'm also reading through the source to see if I can mimic how they did the demo (I know how I'd do it, but I figure it's best to simulate as closely as possible).  Man, Amiga asm is freaky if you don't know it.

I'm trying to get my head around the terminology used in the source and trying to read up on how the Amiga did strange things.  Hopefully by the weekend I'll understand how it works and be able to start my version :D
Title: Re: Retro-Remake Challenge!
Post by: stormbringer on October 17, 2008
Quote
Man, Amiga asm is freaky if you don't know it.

hehe, if you are used to x86 asm, it is indeed quite different. Quite normal since the Amiga was a Motorola based machine.... and Intel & Motorola always had opposite approaches.

However, the MC68000 assembler is really much simpler than the x86 one. Memory management and a whole lot of other things are much simpler and there is no useless legacy in the instruction set
Title: Re: Retro-Remake Challenge!
Post by: Xalthorn on October 17, 2008
Quote
Man, Amiga asm is freaky if you don't know it.

hehe, if you are used to x86 asm, it is indeed quite different. Quite normal since the Amiga was a Motorola based machine.... and Intel & Motorola always had opposite approaches.

However, the MC68000 assembler is really much simpler than the x86 one. Memory management and a whole lot of other things are much simpler and there is no useless legacy in the instruction set

hehe

I'm not used to x86 either.  The only asm I ever tried to learn were the ARM RISC and the Gameboy Z80 and even then, I didn't do much.
Title: Re: Retro-Remake Challenge!
Post by: Shockwave on October 19, 2008
Just in case anyone starts any of these;

(http://www.retro-remakes.net/screenshots/BlackMonks_TestDrive2Trainer_Win32Remake_pic.JPG)
(http://www.retro-remakes.net/screenshots/Andromeda_MemView10_Win32Remake_pic.JPG)
(http://www.retro-remakes.net/screenshots/punishers-lemmings.png)

They've all been converted, sorry.
Title: Re: Retro-Remake Challenge!
Post by: Shockwave on October 23, 2008
You guys are cutting it fine!

You have 2 days left!!!


Title: Re: Retro-Remake Challenge!
Post by: Xalthorn on October 23, 2008
Yeah, I know :(

Trust me to pick one where I don't know how to code half of the silly thing ;)

Although I'm quickly learning why people loved coding on the Amiga, lots of really cool and potentially lazy tricks.  None of which I can use...
Title: Re: Retro-Remake Challenge!
Post by: Jim on October 23, 2008
I thrive on deadline pressure  :bfuck2:
Title: Re: Retro-Remake Challenge!
Post by: Rbz on October 25, 2008
[Reservation]

I'll remake this one -> TRSI Cracktro #6 (http://www.intro-inferno.com/production.php?id=1023)
Sorry to say this, but I could not make this remake, maybe some day, the reasons are those well know "real_life(tm)" problems  :-\

Good luck to everyone entering this compo  :)

Title: Re: Retro-Remake Challenge!
Post by: Shockwave on October 25, 2008
Ah well, thanks for posting Rbz :)

And thank you for the sponsorship for the challenge, it is appreciated!
Title: Re: Retro-Remake Challenge!
Post by: Xalthorn on October 25, 2008
[Reservation]

I'll remake this one -> TRSI Cracktro #6 (http://www.intro-inferno.com/production.php?id=1023)
Sorry to say this, but I could not make this remake, maybe some day, the reasons are those well know "real_life(tm)" problems  :-\

Good luck to everyone entering this compo  :)


Aww :(

I hope the real life stuff is fairly tame and you've simply got too much on your plate.
Title: Re: Retro-Remake Challenge!
Post by: Jim on October 25, 2008
I still have an hour left, right?  One bug to fix...
Title: Re: Retro-Remake Challenge!
Post by: Shockwave on October 25, 2008
Clocks go back tonight Jim :)

So 2 hours until deadline.
Title: Re: Retro-Remake Challenge!
Post by: Xalthorn on October 25, 2008
Clocks go back tonight Jim :)

So 2 hours until deadline.

LOL, except the clocks go back at 2:00am

But who cares, to quote a certain film, 'the rules are more like guidelines anyway' come on Jim :)
Title: Re: Retro-Remake Challenge!
Post by: stormbringer on October 25, 2008
well chosen quote Xalthorn, since all these cracktros were made by pirates :D
Title: Re: Retro-Remake Challenge!
Post by: Xalthorn on October 25, 2008
well chosen quote Xalthorn, since all these cracktros were made by pirates :D

Hehe
Title: Re: Retro-Remake Challenge!
Post by: Jim on October 26, 2008
Just the pauses in the scrolltext left to fix!

Jim

Title: Re: Retro-Remake Challenge!
Post by: Rbz on October 26, 2008
[Reservation]

I'll remake this one -> TRSI Cracktro #6 (http://www.intro-inferno.com/production.php?id=1023)
Sorry to say this, but I could not make this remake, maybe some day, the reasons are those well know "real_life(tm)" problems  :-\

Good luck to everyone entering this compo  :)


Aww :(

I hope the real life stuff is fairly tame and you've simply got too much on your plate.
I was just tired, I've reserved this last week to do this remake but got a lot of problems at work and in the end no time nor energy to do any coding thing :-\
Title: Re: Retro-Remake Challenge!
Post by: Xalthorn on October 26, 2008
[Reservation]

I'll remake this one -> TRSI Cracktro #6 (http://www.intro-inferno.com/production.php?id=1023)
Sorry to say this, but I could not make this remake, maybe some day, the reasons are those well know "real_life(tm)" problems  :-\

Good luck to everyone entering this compo  :)


Aww :(

I hope the real life stuff is fairly tame and you've simply got too much on your plate.
I was just tired, I've reserved this last week to do this remake but got a lot of problems at work and in the end no time nor energy to do any coding thing :-\


Well at least you're generally okay and just run down.  I hope things calm down soon so you can recharge your batteries/
Title: Re: Retro-Remake Challenge!
Post by: Rbz on October 26, 2008
Thanks, I hope so :)
Title: Re: Retro-Remake Challenge!
Post by: Shockwave on October 28, 2008
Waiting for Stormbringers ratings and then I'll open the voting :)

I know he's been a little busy at work the last couple of days, so soon... Sorry for the delay :D