Cracktro haters.

[Shockwave]

I was looking at some comments over at Intro-Inferno (sorry you may need an account over there to view these comments)

http://www.intro-inferno.com/production.php?id=4563

and this cracktro was coded by a really good friend of mine, all his cracktros seem to get really heavy criticism and I don't think that it's all relevant.

People getting worked up about simple intros are denying their roots, scene came from cracktros. When I first got my Amiga I swapped, I had a good friend who was in several really famous groups, his handle was Mr.T and I used to get all the latest things from the groups he was in, namely Skid Row, Razor 1911, Nemessis, 0 day old stuff which I could write and get fast foreign demos.

I never played a game, I used to take the cracktro off the disk and I kept them all. I didn't care about the games.

I could see the beauty and elegance in even a simple sine scroll with a nice copperlist, hell I have over 3,000 amiga cracktros here on my PC!!!! 206 mb of them, no duplicates, all with screen shots. In truth I am a cracktro afficionado and I'd wait for the latest releases, not for the game, but if it was a big release I knew that the group would have a new cracktro.

I can't understand why people deny thier roots and criticise todays release groups for trying to keep the old spirit alive by releasing some simple and elegant intro with thier ISO.

Just check any Electric Druggies prod over at Intro-Inferno, there are usually some sort of nonsense comments.

And why have I posted this?
Well, Widow Maker tells me that he is pissed off with people who don't understand what he is trying to achieve and is thinking of quitting coding.
I know how he feels, I've felt the same way myself at times, I'm lucky that there is this nice community here to keep me busy and happy, but tbh I hae made crack intros myself and I have no desire to make any more at the moment either.

Ffs people registering over there with some fake account just to give a product that is a 1:1 conversion 1/10 or some blind artist who can't draw a letter in proportion having the cheek to talk BULL and critique other people's artwork.

Pah!

[benny!]

@Shockwave:
Cannot understand those comments either. But I think this is more of a general problem.
You are right. Most ppl nowadays dont know the roots of the demoscene. And the roots
are without a doubt in the cracktros.

But the younger generation often don't know cracktros anymore. If they get in contact
with the scene - they see polished productions like the ones from farbrausch ( which are
indeed technical masterpieces ). In comparision to those productions - of course it is rather
easy to say that a cracktro containing a sinus and copperbar sucks.

Not knowing cracktros and if ppl didnt grow up with them - it really might me hard to under-
stand what cracktros mean to older sceners.

Personally I love cracktros because of the whole robin hood spirit and mysterious atmosphere
they create ... hmm ... and nowadays they are represent an own way of digital art. Sadly,
the majority may think that a cracktro is just a poor intro...

[Jim]

Just ignore them.  Anyone who is anyone knows they're idiots.

Jim

[sarek2k]

@benny! i could not have put it better myself 

[benny!]

@benny! i could not have put it better myself 

Thanks for the feedback, mate. It is sometimes quite hard to express feelings in
a non native language. Good to hear that you like my point of view !

[Positron]

Not knowing cracktros and if ppl didnt grow up with them - it really might me hard to under-
stand what cracktros mean to older sceners.

@benny!
That is the point! I can watch a cracktro a 1000 times. The Farbrausch demo I look once maybe twice. But there never is the feeling of an cracktro. We must be sick. 

[Shockwave]

Perhaps it was a bit of a rant on my part, I care about those little intros though and I've been round the block a few times and had my bashings on the various download portals, but when I see these thoughtless comments destroying potential it really rankles me.

Perhaps these people would be happier if todays groups just packaged a diz file with thier ISO and have done with it, cracktros could then be allowed to die and todays effect junkies could be happy.

@benny!
That is the point! I can watch a cracktro a 1000 times. The Farbrausch demo I look once maybe twice. But there never is the feeling of an cracktro. We must be sick. 

Nothing sick about it, it's just a matter of taste. FR demos like you say only prove that they have the best demotool in the scene to me.. To other people groups like these are the meaning of the scene. I don't download much of that sort of stuff any more. I hope WM doesn't quite making intros though as I know he's pissed off about it.

[Hotshot]

For someone who put thump down on people who make diffcult demo is that I think the person is either jeaious or demo rival or just plain idiots who doesnt know what the demo is about or how hard is to code a diffcult demo.

I hope I know what I am talking unless I missing somethings

[benny!]

...
@benny!
That is the point! I can watch a cracktro a 1000 times. The Farbrausch demo I look once
maybe twice. But there never is the feeling of an cracktro. We must be sick. 

So true 

[Stonemonkey]

scene came from cracktros

I beg to differ, it all started with a box with some flashing LEDs on it. And perhaps a radio sitting next to it. All of which was before there was even any software to crack.

[Positron]

For someone who put thump down on people who make diffcult demo is that I think the person is either jeaious or demo rival or just plain idiots who doesnt know what the demo is about or how hard is to code a diffcult demo.

I hope I know what I am talking unless I missing somethings

Farbrausch has fantastic coders, no doubt! But to look at there demos is not the same as looking a cracktro. I can't discribe, it's I kind of feeling!?!
It's not against Farbrausch or there skills!

[.:] Druid [:.]

It's not really about cracktros themselve i guess but it's more oldschool <> newschool.  The fact is cracktros belong to the past, to the oldschool culture.  Now, I'm sad about those comments but none are insulting...i can't delete them.  What I can't understand is why the hell they comment something they don't like, they don't understand!!! There is no point in reading critics in papers if they guy has no knowledge and understanding on the subject! 
I like those intros/cracktros with those nice oldschool effects (the text routine on that one is really nice by the way) and as many of you I've been keeping old floppies just for the intros on them..and I could watch them in loop, several times...even years after!  It has a feeling some newschool prods will never have.  It's really hard to explain and I might seem dumb to young people (listen to the old :p).

I just wish it won't affect the coders and won't stop anyone willing to code a crackto-like!

Now, the production had some nice comments too! so, let's be positive: there are indeed people loving them, and that what widow maker should keep in mind!

[benny!]

...
Now, the production had some nice comments too! so, let's be positive: there are indeed people
loving them, and that what widow maker should keep in mind!

I can totally second that 

[p01]

I beg to differ.

I grew with the Vic20, Amstrad, Atari and Amiga in the early-mid 80's. I watched and liked cracktros at the time : they were really cool code, gfx & music wise for their respective machines. But today's cracktro, at least the few I've seen, don't live up to the standard set 15-20 years ago.

Seeing copper bars on a badass PC doesn't bring tears in my eyes, it simply raise my eye brow. OTOH seeing copper bars on an Atari or Amiga, now that's different.

Also, regarding conversions, I must say I don't really see the point of converting/porting a prod to a more powerful machine. Where's the fun and the challenge ? But, again, if some one ports an Amiga/Atari prod to C64, Oric, ZX, Amstrad and I'll happily raise my thumb.

[benny!]

I beg to differ.

I grew with the Vic20, Amstrad, Atari and Amiga in the early-mid 80's. I watched and liked cracktros
at the time : they were really cool code, gfx & music wise for their respective machines. But today's
cracktro, at least the few I've seen, don't live up to the standard set 15-20 years ago.

Seeing copper bars on a badass PC doesn't bring tears in my eyes, it simply raise my eye brow. OTOH
seeing copper bars on an Atari or Amiga, now that's different.

Also, regarding conversions, I must say I don't really see the point of converting/porting a prod to a more
powerful machine. Where's the fun and the challenge ? But, again, if some one ports an Amiga/Atari
prod to C64, Oric, ZX, Amstrad and I'll happily raise my thumb.

In the past, the challenging part of cracktros wasn't the cracktro itself. It was the removal of the copy
protection and releasing 0dayz warez. But that didn't fascinate me. It was more the robin hood feeling
of an underground movement described above.

Cracktros, at least for me, didn't push the hardware to its limits. On Amiga we had MegaDemos to squeeze
cool fx out of the computer. Don't get me wrong - I do not say that a mindblowing fx doesnt fit into a crack-
tro - I just think this is not a must.

As I said above - a cracktro should create a certain mood / atmosphere ( at least for me ). It needs a bit
of everything : code, music, design, right scroller etc. Thats the challenging and hardest part ... and it is
cool to see that there are some present releases which bring back some memories!

//EDIT: Have a look at this thread as well : http://dbfinteractive.com/index.php?topic=1168.msg17478#msg17478

[hellsangel]

I was looking at some comments over at Intro-Inferno (sorry you may need an account over there to view these comments)
[...]
Well, Widow Maker tells me that he is pissed off with people who don't understand what he is trying to achieve and is thinking of quitting coding.
I know how he feels, I've felt the same way myself at times, I'm lucky that there is this nice community here to keep me busy and happy, but tbh I hae made crack intros myself and I have no desire to make any more at the moment either.

I understand better now what's happens with the Oldskool compo...
(and on Pouet with the scoopex remake...)

checkmate

[p01]

In the past, the challenging part of cracktros wasn't the cracktro itself. It was the removal of the copy
protection and releasing 0dayz warez. But that didn't fascinate me. It was more the robin hood feeling
of an underground movement described above.

Fair enough. But cracking and making a cracktros are two different things. Although a good cracktro can communicate the 'robin hood' feeling and make 'justice' to the good work done by the cracker(s).

Cracktros, at least for me, didn't push the hardware to its limits. On Amiga we had MegaDemos to squeeze
cool fx out of the computer. Don't get me wrong - I do not say that a mindblowing fx doesnt fit into a crack-

True, only a few pushed the hardware but at least they were at the level of average screens of the time. One thing we can't really say about today's cracktros.

[benny!]

...True, only a few pushed the hardware but at least they were at the level of average screens
of the time. One thing we can't really say about today's cracktros.

Absolutely right here p01. Although this also counts for nowadays 64kb intro e.g. But speaking
of cracktros I am happy that we have ppl like Hitchikr, Alpha One and of course Widow Maker 

[Ghost^BHT]

Its tough to work hard on a project and have people criticize it. But I would say that anyone releasing stuff to the public should be ready for the critics, both legitimate and lame. Been there and got angry at some remarks on my work. I would say to Widow Maker and anyone else that is doing creative work, do what you like to do, do it the best you can, and use legitimate criticism to help you improve and ignore the lame remarks. As far as cracktros go, I enjoy some and think some are just boring, same as hi tech demos. The cracktro that Shockwave was refering to I made comments that I didn't like it because: #1 I didnt think the logo fit the cracktro. #2 I think rotating object and starfields are boring. The text writer was good. On the otherhand I thought that one done for Skid Row http://www.intro-inferno.com/production.php?id=4917 was good because it was a bit different from the usual, most purist cracktro peeps didnt like it. So go figure. If you want to keep the purists happy keep doing sinus scrollers with starfields and all the rest of the usual stuff cause thats what they like. But mostly do what you like and enjoy it.

[taj]

What a subject!

Lets face it, these arguments do not just apply to cracktros. Theres a stupid subsection of the scene (some very famous) who believe they have the right to tell others what to do - how to express themselves. You shouldn't do cracktros copies, do a 4k not 1k, don't use oldskool design etc. Worse even when you do a great job of your thing (a cracktro COPY eg) someone will be either so ignorant or so jealous as you will get destroyed anyway.

I agree with druid, if you don't get it, don't comment. Unfortunately thats far too mature for some.

But back to cracktros. In a sense I agree with P01: watching a spinning cube on a PC just doesn't do it for me. I don't care how nicely the text moves in a sin wave, its all been done and on much more resource constrained platforms. I don't see the "Robin Hood" spirit you guys do. For me cracktros were a way of showing just how brilliant people were, not only can they crack the title, but now, look at this in your face graphics like you never saw. It was bragging. It was my cock is bigger than your cock. But now its "history", "respect".

Not that I'd go to II and give a bad vote - whats the point, I obviously don't get it. I just want to emphasise that there are some of us who dont and never will get modern cracktros.

But if you think its unique to cracktros...well I dont think so. Theres a guy at Pouet for example who simply doesnt like small productions - waffle. Always criticises them for irrelevant reasons (no design in 1k for example). He doesn't get it and never will. Yet continues to post. Hes not the only one but hes the most "active" hater.

In the end, there are some of us, like your firend shockie, you and me, who enjoy a certain niche element of the scene most. Others often don't get it. They wont get it. Tell your friend not to stop coding. Just stop releasing in formal ways. No matter how good it gets, the best the haters will do is ignore if they think they will look ridiculous because your prod really is good. Its an uphill fight and its not worth it. Focus on the pixels, not the co-called, scene.