I guess I don't like Web programming...

[Pixel_Outlaw]

So for about 3 months now I've been working at a job I dislike. (bitch whine...etc)

The real problem I feel is that I don't like web programming. Basically I feel that it is all sort of temporary and meaningless.

I don't like the mindset of web programming.
I don't like making stateless programs where you have to fiddle with cookies and such.
Unlike standard programming, all that you depends on 3rd party software the web browser you are at the mercy of the browser.
I don't like the fact that the standards of HTML are a mess and that browsers are all different this causes walls and walls of special cases.
It seems that web programmers don't speak the same (sensible) language as application programmers. (I sort of regard them as false prophets of the computer world).
You never just sit down and work in HTML, you have to add on myriads of external languages and clutter just to "trick" HTML into displaying what you want.
There is no cycle like a normal program you calculate then barf everything onto to the screen.

I work in a combination of javascript, HTML (duh) and jQuery at work. They have this horrible horrible product called BCD Websmart that supposedly enables COBOL programmers to integrate into web design. Ofcourse it runs all the logic of the webpage and has it's own syntax (another layer of annoyance). Also it integrated with IBM's DB2 database (Which they've had since the 80's).

Just frusterated as hell and needed to vent. I really think web design is far more convoluted that it need be and my case is probably as bad as it gets.

[Jim]

We use JavaScript, jquery, HTML in conjunction with Microsoft's MVC. I'm happy with it, though it can be frustrating sometimes with the limitations and cross-browser differences. What else are you doing which makes it suck?
It can all be down to work environment.
Sorry for you though that it's still not working out.

[combatking0]

My web programming abilities are more of a hobby than a career, though I do some programming for work, which is mostly for an intranet, so they've got control over which versions of which browsers will be running the content.

To get around the limitations of HTML & Javascript, I took up Flash 8 as a cross-browser and cross-platform presentation tool.

It's strange having 6 or 7 languages running round my head though (HTML, JS, AS, PHP, ASP, MySQL and M$SQL) but they'll come in handy if I decide to go into web coding professionally.

At least with procedural coding environments you can get away with using a single language most of the time. It's the strict variable typing and memory management that confuse me though.

[Shockwave]

If you don't like web programming you'll be pleased to know that Microsoft seem to be intent on taking most of the programming work out of .net web applications.

It was part of the .net course I did recently and I was amazed at how much work .net saves, especially with the kind of stuff you'd need to write loads of complicated javascript for, although whether that's a good thing or not is debatable I suppose.

[jace_stknights]

Since more than 10 years I'm eating at work PHP, Javascipt, Jquery, Jscript, flash and so on... I must admit that I'm happy with that. It is quite simple NOW (I must admit that making web apps in 1996 in pearl was a pain!).
I can even do some optimization sometimes (yes!!! reminds the good old time!  ) to make a script working faster...
And now I can make some animations on screen! (I think I should start making my first demo in JavaScript  )

You should try JScript and Tomcat, with Eclipse! There are lot of frameworks that make the code like Windows style!
Or as Shockwave told, .net is also a way near to the OS style codeing.

But I think the easier is using PHP5 + Jquery! Tooooooooooo simple!!!

[maracuja]

php.... sigh...

[Xetick]

I have been working with web dev for quite a few years and must say I'm currently a rather happy camper with Asp.Net MVC 3 Razor and JQuery. Worked with WebForms before, the viewstate and that things just magically happened was very annoying back then. In MVC Razor they seem to have got it right.
The server side is very clean, simple and rest based so you work with 'raw' html most of the time. You still have the master/view structure that really helps. The server side code in the views are very clean and you use what you know ie C# in a unobstructive way, unlike normal Asp.Net (MVC or other wise) with the not so nice <% %> syntax. Also lets not forget Microsofts stength. The wonderful intellisense for both server and client side code. Can't live without that .

I have done my own Plane9 web site in it and am currently working on an integration at work between two major gamling/poker companies where I'm building most of both the client and admin pages using this.

[benny!]

I have to say that I am actually quite happy with web programming. I really can understand and know the frustration PO feels - but after using the right tools and knowing the normal trapfalls, coding for the web is much fun.

Curerntly I am doing a lot of javascript. There are numerous great projects around which produces great tools and libraries that help you out in my daily work.

On the backend site I am using PHP5 at the moment, although I am thinking to switch over to Java and or Javascript/node.js in future (need some more investigation).

Nevertheless, speaking of browser as the target platform to develop for, I love it that the app you write just runs on nearly every browser and you reach like 95% of the internet users (even the mobile users). Additionally, the end user does not need to care about any requirements and installations.

[Shockwave]

The wonderful intellisense for both server and client side code. Can't live without that .

Agreed.

[combatking0]

The complexities of making a server script which interacts with both a database and a client script are greatly satisfying when you get everything working properly.

[Pixel_Outlaw]

JavaScript is the only part of web programming I enjoy.
I doubt anyone here has worked with my daily "tool" at work.

It is designed to make IBM programmers who write in ILE RPG feel at home.
http://www.bcdsoftware.com/iseries400solutions/websmart/index.htm

When I boil it down, conceptually I guess I hate writing "programs" that are dependant on an application (browser). At any time the HTML standards could change,  the browsers drop features and your page and work are worthless (legacy).

[combatking0]

I guess there is that level of uncertainty.

The server side is also quite vulnerable, as I've seen websites coded for old versions of PHP, and the hosting company has upgraded the server to run the latest version of PHP, and all of a sudden a server script which has worked fine for years suddenly stops working and the customer has no idea why - then they call me to update the script.

Client side scripts also need to be updated quite frequently to conform to the latest changes, but I guess prospective web coders can either like the challenge or dislike it greatly.

[benny!]

...
When I boil it down, conceptually I guess I hate writing "programs" that are dependant on an application (browser). At any time the HTML standards could change,  the browsers drop features and your page and work are worthless (legacy).

...
The server side is also quite vulnerable, as I've seen websites coded for old versions of PHP, and the hosting company has upgraded the server to run the latest version of PHP, and all of a sudden a server script which has worked fine for years suddenly stops working and the customer has no idea why - then they call me to update the script.
...

If the hosting company just switches language version because they are new, than they should inform you and at least give you the choice to upgrade or to stay on your current version (you could run multiple PHP versions AFAIK).

Generally people have to switch they mind when offering an online product. A website/online game etc is not a final boxed product like a console game for example. Think of it as a service. It needs permanent work/upgrading/security hole fixing etc. Of course you also provided updates for boxed products, but the online environment is different in many ways.

...
Client side scripts also need to be updated quite frequently to conform to the latest changes, but I guess prospective web coders can either like the challenge or dislike it greatly.

Hmm ... this got really better over the last years in my opinion. If you use general purpose libraries like Jquery you could write rather easily cross browser code which runs on nearly all modern browsers. And luckily it is really about time to drop IE6 for example ;-)

[Jim]

And luckily it is really about time to drop IE6 for example

We just finally flicked our browser to IE7 mode - Yay! the box model is almost right!.  IE6 market share is only a few percent these days.  Would have liked to go to IE8, but baby steps unfortunately.  jQuery or similar is a must for web page development, but their v1.6 is very problematic as an upgrade (attr/prop).

Jim