Using third party stuff

[benny!]

Hey,

I feel a bit torn currently. Just created my entry for the Wirechallenge. In my production I use a lot of libraries I found around the internet. On the one hand I like the outcome of the project but on the other hand it feels a bit strange creating something which makes use of so many 3rd party sources.

I remember the time (Amiga era) when I coded everything from scratch - e.g. I even did some assembly routines for better string manipulation and stuff like that. However, nowadays my productions seems to be not possible without using third party tools/code/libraries. Having the internet as a big source of already existing solutions to what I need make me lazy of creating my own.

And that's why I am torn a bit. I fear that by simply using thrid party tools you do not really know what is going on under the hood. Otherwise, I think it is good to create something upon other one works (if you credit them of course). Especially, since my time is limited, I fear that I would not even start a project if I had to do all on my own.

How do you think about it?

Best,
benny!

[padman]

Regarding the challenges, it's not against the rules to use 3rd party libs as long as you say what you used, so I have no probs with that. People can decide on their own, whether they mind or not.
I like to see as many entries as possible and if real life forces you to use some 3rd party stuff, it's still better than just waffling about great ideas in the beginning and then not entering something in the challenges due to lack of time.
Of course doing stuff completely on your own makes you feel better, but noone would rewrite a MOD player for example, since it's just not neccessary because there's enough available already... All is cool! And now have a nice Sunday!  hehe

[Edit: fixed typos]

[benny!]

Thanks for the kind words.

Maybe I just gone mad with this topic and I guess nowadays it is somehow natural building software upon existing
libraries/frameworks - actually I do it every day during work. But when it comes to demoscene programming it still feels
unnatural to me. But I share your point that it is better to release/create stuff instead of just doing nothin.

... All is cool! And now have a nice Sunday!  hehe

Thanks, unfortunately I have to work on my tax return today (puke)

[Xetick]

I agree with padman on this. Use what you need for your entry but make sure to state what you have used. If the voters then think you have used too much they will vote accordingly. The more entries the better since you usually learn something from the entries.

[Shockwave]

I'd definitely agree whith what's been written above.

If the libraries are out there to be used - then it's cool to use them.

Coding can be a far different discipline than it used to be 20 years ago.. Things have evolved and as this is a board full of coders you can be sure that the voters will nearly always vote on how well you used the libraries to produce the finished result.

Another thing is that I'd rather see entries that use some libraries than none at all.

About the no-shows - Sometimes stuff just happens in life to get in the way of the comps.  I think that we all appreciate this.. It's not like this is a job and people have to enter, and as long as those people who didn't enter use thier votes to supportt the people who did then that's cool (with me anyway!).

Lastly, and I'll shut the fuck up then (I promise) about the comps.. They are not easy to organise because of a lot of things.

We have coders of all abilities here using all kinds of languages.  We don't have enough people using a certain discipline to have different categories so everything gets put into the same one and the members are trusted to decide on the voting (and they usually get it right).  It's really difficult to choose a theme suitable for everyone each time so I wouldn't want to put more obstacles in the way by saying you can't use this and that.

In fact the rules on platforms and emulation are going to become even more flexible from the next one on.

Rules are mainly in place because of snags that we've run into in the past - it's not perfect (and it never will be) but it works quite well.

And To everyone who is going to enter the challenge - thanks!
And to those who don't - Make sure you use your votes at the end

[padman]

About the no-shows(...)

I didn't mean to be harsh with my statement about not entering the challenges (though after re-reading it might sound kinda harsh, sorry for that). I know about the time factor and if people can't participate due to personal reasons, that's absolutely ok. I just wanted to underline that a quick entry with 3rd party libs is better than none. 

@benny: just think of the tax return form as a huge wireframe thing, where you have to fill in vector fonts manually... 

[benny!]

Shocky, I agree with you.

...
In fact the rules on platforms and emulation are going to become even more flexible from the next one on.
...

This sounds interesting

...
@benny: just think of the tax return form as a huge wireframe thing, where you have to fill in vector fonts manually... 

lol ... thanks for the hint - I will try to think about that to keep me motivated filling out those dull forms ;-)

[LittleWhite]

When I have started programming (really lately ), I was discovering the demoscene (and wonderful demos) at the same time. I was thinking, yeah man, I will do everything in ASM and so on ... I have learnt a bit of ASM ... start to program under windows to see that, contrarily to Atari / Amiga era, everything is protected, everything is kept away from my crappy hands ...
I thought it was bad (no easy way to go up 320x240 in ASM), we could not have proper fun . And then I have looked to these libraries (C) that they were doing the stuff that I wanted. So I have moved on these and using these.

I am still sad that I was not born for the Atari / Amiga stuff where you could control everything, but well ... using DirectX or OpenGL is not that bad

[Shockwave]

I am still sad that I was not born for the Atari / Amiga stuff where you could control everything, but well ... using DirectX or OpenGL is not that bad

Don't be sad - you can still buy an ST or an Amiga and you'll still be around to carry on the traditions when most of the older sceners have gone

[spitfire]

This is an interesting topic I think about alot. I'm not talking about it in regards to this compo, it is great just to see entries. Im also not talking at benny here, just in general.

Art has the same problems. Some real artists actually project a photo 1:1 size onto a wall and then paint over it and apparently that type of cheating has been done for ages by great artists.

I have a big problem with it, I will go so far as to say its not real art.  If youre just tracing a picture or copy pasting other peoples artwork in and painting over - then why are you doing it at all? Why not just present their work as it is.
If all it was about, was having a picture appear, there are other ways to do it that arent art. Just say - look! theres the view infront of you, why paint it at all?  Its like saying the idea is good enough, and the realisation or implementation thereof is just unimportant grunt work.

So is the art the idea, or is it the implementation of the idea? Actually I always thought only ideas matter, that it is the pure art and the implementation is a vulgar immitation of the glory of my imagination.
I'm quite undecided about this but I feel extreme cases for both sides are true.

Thats my anal puritan opinion on the matter

I totally hate that I have to use directx or winapi to get my pixels on the screen. I feel it detracts from the art value of my code.

[Kirl]

I agree it's a good topic, I've gone through several stages of thinking about what to apreciate in any art form.

I'll spare you the history but currently I don't care what is used to achieve a result. Something can be impressive for a wide variaty of reasons, form, function, concept, skills etc, I think all are fair arguments to base a personal opinion on. I feel required skills and resources are just obstacles between an idea and it's realisation.

Basically we're all conglomerations of other peoples knowledge and skills which we assimilated over our lives. Random
(ok, meaby some intentional) mutations occur and natural selection does it's magic, the result is what counts. If available solutions allow us to skip several steps in the creative evolution, that's good.

...Copyrights bad.


So, as long as credit is given, there can be no wrong opinions.

[hellfire]

Without 3rd party tools we would be typing hex-opcodes and we wouldn't even have a text-editor to do it...

[benny!]

Without 3rd party tools we would be typing hex-opcodes and we wouldn't even have a text-editor to do it...

lol ... I guess I got your point ;-)

[spitfire]

Without 3rd party tools we would be typing hex-opcodes and we wouldn't even have a text-editor to do it...

That just made me come 

[benny!]

Without 3rd party tools we would be typing hex-opcodes and we wouldn't even have a text-editor to do it...

That just made me come 

 

[Shockwave]